[00:00:00] Daryl Cagle: Hey everybody. I'm Daryl Cagle and this is the CagleCast where we're all about political cartoons. And today our topic is " Trump Dog". That's both Trump the dog and Trump with a dog and anything that is Trump-dog related. And we have. Four great cartoonists, plus myself, here today to talk about Trump and dogs gentlemen, it's great to have you all here. 

[00:00:28] Pat Bagley: Good to be here. 

[00:00:29] Bob Englehart: Great to be here. 

[00:00:30] Daryl Cagle: Okay. we're going to start off with Pat Bagley. Pat has been the brilliant cartoonist for the Salt Lake Tribune in Utah since 1979. Pat has won a ton of awards, including the Herblock Award, and he's also a shining star in our profession.

[00:00:44] Daryl Cagle: Great to have you here, Pat. Good to be here. So tell us about this cartoon. 

[00:00:47] Pat Bagley: Well, of course, when we do cartoons, we Look at all the news and they did this during the Westminster dog show. And to me, it was just, an easy one. you know, these dogs respond to commands and I thought, well, there's Trump.

[00:00:59] Daryl Cagle: He is such a toady to Putin.

Yes, absolutely. No, no collusion, no collusion. 

[00:01:04] Taylor Jones: I like Trump's lips here, Pat. Oh, thank you. 

[00:01:08] Daryl Cagle: The lips are funny. Um, early 

[00:01:10] Pat Bagley: on in the, in the evolution of Trump as a cartoon character, and it took me a while to kind of land on what I finally, decided to make him look like.

[00:01:18] Pat Bagley: So this is, I'm still trying to figure out what he, what he looks like and how to draw him. 

[00:01:21] Taylor Jones: Well, have you noticed that, Trump's daughter Ivanka does bear quite a resemblance to her dad in a much nicer way, of course, but they both have the same kind of lips and, Trump really actually has little feminine lips that are strangely pink.

[00:01:34] Taylor Jones: I don't know if anybody's noticed that, but me, because I always, when I'm, when I'm painting a cartoon with him in it. I always have to go pinker on his lips. 

[00:01:42] Dave Whamond: I've actually noticed they're white a lot sometimes. It's like he puts some sort of powder on there or something. I don't know what it is.

[00:01:48] Daryl Cagle: Well, there's a whole bunch of Trump standards that everybody's adopted. The small hands, the blue suit, the always red tie, 

[00:01:55] Pat Bagley: The long tie. 

[00:01:56] Daryl Cagle: Yes, the long red tie. 

[00:01:58] Bob Englehart: It's his brand. 

[00:02:00] Daryl Cagle: You have to follow those or else it looks like you got something wrong. 

[00:02:04] Bob Englehart: I don't know about you guys, but my caricature of Trump changed after, uh, the mug shot.

[00:02:08] Bob Englehart: I was drawing him one way before the mug shot, and now I'm drawing him as pure evil. 

[00:02:13] Daryl Cagle: Well, I used to live in New York, and I remember Trump from the 1970s, and he was tall and skinny, and it took me a long time to think of him as being so fat.

[00:02:22] Bob Englehart: Yeah, he, I think he looked like Elvis when he was 

[00:02:24] Bob Englehart: younger. 

[00:02:25] Taylor Jones: My, you know, my, my, my ex wife thought Trump was very handsome, cute, cute as a, as a younger man. 

[00:02:31] Daryl Cagle: So Pat, here's one that I did that is similar because it's so obvious that he is such a Putin toady.

[00:02:39] Daryl Cagle: So Bob, this is the first one from our Bob Engelhart, who was the editorial cartoonist for the Hartford Courant for 35 years when his job was eliminated before that, he worked for Chicago Today and the Journal Gazette in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and the Journal Herald in Dayton, Ohio.

[00:02:55] Daryl Cagle: And we have syndicated Bob's work for nearly 20 years. Great to have you here, Bob. Yeah, great to be here. Go to Cagle.com/ Engelhart and, put a little money in Bob's tip jar. And we would really appreciate that because, Bob really needs a tip. 

[00:03:09] Bob Englehart: I, wanted to point out that, I, this is how I drew him until the mugshot.

[00:03:14] Bob Englehart: After the mugshot, I had a different character, but, this is, I drew him with the, the, the mouth of a sucker fish, you know, a bottom feeder I don't know if you've ever fished a river, but, uh, you can catch a sucker there, an ugly fish, and, I had to draw his mouth like that because every time he talks, I see that I just see his mouth like a sucker.

[00:03:32] Daryl Cagle: I like how you always have the bald spot in his part. 

[00:03:35] Bob Englehart: Oh, yeah. I see it. It's there. 

[00:03:37] Pat Bagley: Yeah. 

[00:03:38] Bob Englehart: He tries to hide it, but, uh, his skin is so pink. he puts the makeup on it, so 

[00:03:42] Taylor Jones: it's nice and orange. Pink and orange. Pink and orange. Yeah. 

[00:03:45] Daryl Cagle: Bronzer.

[00:03:46] Daryl Cagle: So Dave, here we have Dave Whamond, he is incredibly prolific. Dave draws two comics, Reality Check and Day by Dave. And Dave is also a prolific illustrator who does puzzles and greeting cards and lots of top selling children's books. And of course, wonderful political cartoons for us. Great to have you here, Dave.

[00:04:06] Dave Whamond: Oh, thanks for having me. 

[00:04:07] Daryl Cagle: So tell us about Wagging the Don. 

[00:04:10] Dave Whamond: Thanks Well, first off, 

[00:04:11] Dave Whamond: I just want to mention my dog, Reuben, wants, nothing, no association in whole or in part with Donald Trump because we're doing Trump dog and in one sentence or any politician for that matter. So, so anyway, yeah, this, I can't remember.

[00:04:23] Dave Whamond: This is quite a while ago. it's funny how you go back and you can't even remember at the time what was going on, but I just, you know, wagging the dog reversal with wagging the Don. So I can't remember the exact, Event that was happening with this one, but I thought I'd 

[00:04:36] Dave Whamond: do a reversal on it. 

[00:04:37] Daryl Cagle: Well, there was a, an event.

[00:04:38] Daryl Cagle: Here's another wagging the dog from Adam Ziglis from the same time. 2016 is when this was happening. And there are lots of wagging the dog cartoons that don't necessarily have Donald Trump's head on a metaphorical dog. I don't remember what was going on either, but he was, I guess, being warlike.

[00:04:55] Dave Whamond: Yeah, it's hard 

[00:04:56] Dave Whamond: to remember. It's like, so much happened in those four years and continues to happen, like, every day it's hard to, keep everything straight after 

[00:05:02] Taylor Jones: a while. especially the way Trump, muddies everything with constant tweets and what have you. Mm hmm. 

[00:05:07] Daryl Cagle: Mm hmm. Here's one of my Trump dogs.

[00:05:09] Daryl Cagle: This is Trump marking his territory.

[00:05:11] Bob Englehart: How many newspapers use that cartoon? 

[00:05:14] Daryl Cagle: They don't like it. 

[00:05:14] Bob Englehart: When I was working for The Current, it was just a thing. I could not get any puddle. But then one day my editor published a Oliphant cartoon with a fire hydrant and a puddle next to it. And I pointed out, I said, so you're, you're publishing dog pee puddles now?

[00:05:30] Bob Englehart: He said, what do you mean? And I said, you see that puddle next to the fire hydrant and you see the dog? That's a puddle of pee. He 

[00:05:36] Bob Englehart: was shocked. 

[00:05:39] Taylor Jones: After that, after that, did they relent? Let you, uh,

[00:05:43] Dave Whamond: Daryl, you'd mentioned that a lot of the publishers don't like to use or editors don't like to use Trump cartoons as much, but they're very popular online. And I'm wondering if, in the seventies or eighties, if these would have made the papers a little more regularly, or is it just because they like playing it safe now, or it'd be interesting to find out.

[00:06:05] Daryl Cagle: I don't know. They have shied away from Trump. And, uh, I think that's cause you make. Maybe it's because you make half the people angry. 

[00:06:12] Taylor Jones: well, yeah Dave, I think you're onto something there I think that comedy in general was much edgier in the 70s as well as the late 60s and you think of a cartoonist, um, Ralph Steadman and Just about all those cartoons.

[00:06:26] Taylor Jones: It ultimately boiled down to Emissions of some sort.

[00:06:29] Bob Englehart: Yeah, and I also think that an editor doesn't want to spend all day on the phone defending a cartoon. I mean, they're so overworked, they're understaffed, they got They're running scared and, uh, they don't want to, they want, they want to make people 

[00:06:42] Taylor Jones: laugh.

[00:06:43] Taylor Jones: Or maybe their printers have told them that yellow ink is more expensive. 

[00:06:46] Daryl Cagle: So Taylor, I think you outdid me.

[00:06:49] Taylor Jones: Maybe the first time it's been published.

[00:06:55] Bob Englehart: This is a great drawing. This is a great drawing. You can actually smell it. 

[00:06:58] Taylor Jones: Excuse me, Bob. I appreciate that. Well, this, you know, I'm, I'm sort of, uh, I'm not sure what to say here because this was in reference to, uh, the blank blank countries that, Trump himself, as, as Trump himself described them, I guess we can't do that on this podcast, can we?

[00:07:22] Daryl Cagle: Well, I think YouTube searches the transcript for four letter words. So if you say the four letter words, I will cut them out. 

[00:07:30] Taylor Jones: I see. Well, of course, this is totally, I guess this could be a hyphenated eight letter word, but, uh, this, again, this was after he described the developing world in certain, terms.

[00:07:41] Taylor Jones: And this was my response to it. 

[00:07:42] Daryl Cagle: Very good. there are variations on this theme. I thought this was nice. stepping in the Trump MAGA hat. And that's a curse word we can use. MAGA? perhaps he is saying MAGA. 

[00:07:54] Pat Bagley: So what I find interesting is that this is by Rick McKee. Yeah. Who is the conservative cartoonist.

[00:08:00] Pat Bagley: Yeah. But he wants nothing to do with Trump. 

Right. 

[00:08:03] Taylor Jones: But there are some out there like that. Yeah, 

[00:08:04] Dave Whamond: I think Rick's kind of, Rick's almost more in the middle, I find, with, with some of this stuff. there's some that are still hardcore on the Trump side, so. 

[00:08:12] Bob Englehart: Oh man, hardly ever. And I look at those cartoons and I think they cannot possibly believe what they're saying here.

[00:08:18] Bob Englehart: But they do, and they probably think the same thing about me.

[00:08:21] Daryl Cagle: This is a lovely cartoon, Taylor. Mutual admiration society. We have the dogs sniffing each other's butts. 

[00:08:27] Taylor Jones: Yeah, well, Bibi and Donald and Vlad and, uh, well, that's what they do. You know, they're strong men who all admire each other. And, they're just letting them, they're just letting each other 

[00:08:37] Daryl Cagle: You know, we've discussed this before, but I love how you always have Trump drooling.

[00:08:41] Taylor Jones: I don't do that so much anymore. Well, 

[00:08:43] Daryl Cagle: what caused you to change? 

[00:08:46] Taylor Jones: I guess I got a little bored with it. I may come back. In fact, I might have, both Trump and Biden drooling, that, that'd probably be appropriate in terms of, if they, if they actually debate, it'll be a 

[00:08:54] Daryl Cagle: drooling debate. That's very even handed of you.

[00:08:56] Dave Whamond: I find it's hard to take a politician and change them into an animal. I think you did a nice job in those, uh, you can still recognize the caricatures. 

[00:09:05] Taylor Jones: Daryl, can you go back to that cartoon just for a second? Have you had a problem with editors with testicles? 

[00:09:09] Daryl Cagle: I don't remember them mentioning it in particular, but I don't think you've ever seen them on the most printed cartoons list I send you.

[00:09:16] Taylor Jones: Well, of course you see them on Putin, but I always. Whenever I've drawn a dog in a cartoon, uh, especially if it's as a person, uh, I'll try to fit them in there, but do it in a way that it's, you know, understated. It's where someone has to look. 

[00:09:30] Daryl Cagle: Do you watch Rick and Morty? Well, you should watch it because it is all about putting testicles into everything.

[00:09:38] Dave Whamond: It's my son's favorite. So I'm, I'm familiar with it. He's always showing me clips. 

[00:09:42] Taylor Jones: I'll check it out. 

[00:09:44] Daryl Cagle: So this is from a Bulgarian cartoonist, Christo Komarnitsky, and I thought this was cute. There's actually quite a few of these, cone on, on Trump's head cartoons that keep him from chewing on himself.

[00:09:57] Taylor Jones: And it's kind of the ultimate humiliation for dogs to have to wear those things. I mean, obviously they have a purpose, but every dog looks Silly and I think maybe they feel that way Wearing those things, 

[00:10:06] Daryl Cagle: you know, it's got a handle on it, which also defines it as a bull horn. 

[00:10:09] Dave Whamond: Yeah, that's what I was noticing Yeah 

[00:10:11] Daryl Cagle: Here's one from Adam Ziglis.

[00:10:13] Daryl Cagle: Says the inner circle as Trump wears his cone I guess North Korea is in the inner circle of him. 

[00:10:19] Pat Bagley: So there's a cartoon by Steve Sack where he gives Donald Trump, the cone of shame on his little hands so that he can't sign stuff. I don't know if you'd call that good. It was really 

[00:10:30] Taylor Jones: good.

[00:10:31] Daryl Cagle: This is R. J. Mattson with the border wall cartoon. Trump is the beware of dog, and they're climbing over the border wall, and Trump is a threatening dog to them on the American side. he didn't seem to keep them out that much though. Perhaps 

[00:10:45] Bob Englehart: more than now. I like the details. I like the details in there. I hate to draw details, but I like to see them in other people's cartoons.

[00:10:51] Daryl Cagle: There's something kind of charming and old fashioned about the way that he's kind of equally spaced the details in the ground. Yeah. Kind of a 1930s look, you know? 

[00:11:01] Taylor Jones: RJ's very good at the details. 

[00:11:03] Daryl Cagle: yeah, it's charming. This is from Ed Wexler, and you have here Doggy Trump, who is chewing up the Constitution, and Paul Ryan says he just doesn't know any better.

[00:11:12] Daryl Cagle: that's cute. Of course, that's a very early Trump. I think, Ed has developed his Trump. And we've lost Paul Ryan, and we don't see him anymore. 

[00:11:19] Taylor Jones: Well, it's a great Paul Ryan, and, and I think, Ed's one of the great Trump caricaturists. But one thing he's stuck with, and, and I guess it's an early Trump.

[00:11:26] Taylor Jones: But that kind of fold of hair on the top of his head, that's a trademark of all of Ed's Trumps, I really like it. 

[00:11:33] Dave Whamond: Yeah, and it's interesting to see all the different depictions of his hair in all these different 

[00:11:38] Daryl Cagle: cartoons. Some people draw a big spike of hair. some people draw whisps that flow around.

[00:11:45] Daryl Cagle: So here's, Bill Day. Trump is chewing up the newspaper, the free press, calling it fake news. there's a lot for Trump to chew up. 

[00:11:52] Taylor Jones: I like Trump's nose here.

[00:11:54] Daryl Cagle: This is one of mine during the pandemic. This is uh, what the doggie hears cartoon, which we've all drawn and, uncle Sam says pandemic, but the doggie Trump hears election fraud, everything sounds like election fraud to him.

[00:12:08] Pat Bagley: The Republicans that I have pointed out before is that two thirds of them believe a lie. Which is an election stolen. And here I am in red Utah, and most of the legislature, which is in session right now, they love lies.

[00:12:22] Pat Bagley: They love this kind of lie about how they have been, marginalized. That they're the ones who are being discriminated against. and they own everything here. But they're convinced that they are being the, the subject of discrimination and they're really angry about D. E. I. they recently outlawed that in, in the state, male religious people rule the state.

[00:12:42] Pat Bagley: They run everything, but they think that they're being, abused. 

[00:12:46] Taylor Jones: I feel you should question, their policies, question their, the worth, the worthiness of them, the necessity.

[00:12:53] Taylor Jones: The expense, uh, raise the, specter of, unintended consequences. but, with, with Republicans, it's easier. you should question their motives. What are they saying? What are they really saying? What are they really trying to do? And I think the, lie stuff just fits right in.

[00:13:08] Taylor Jones: There's something else going on. They don't believe half of what they're telling you. 

[00:13:12] Dave Whamond: I was reading about this the other day, just how, a, lot of the Republicans in power secretly behind the scenes don't believe any of this stuff, but it works. So they, their base, eats it and that's kind of all they have is just to say election fraud, you know, doesn't go their way.

[00:13:27] Dave Whamond: And, uh, 

[00:13:28] Pat Bagley: Biden has opened our borders and is Inviting, people from South America to your neighborhood and it's nonsense. 

[00:13:35] Daryl Cagle: I think we are what we do if you act like you believe it, then it doesn't make any difference if in private you don't believe it. I'm not going to cut them any slack for saying in private that we never hear that they don't believe stuff.

[00:13:48] Taylor Jones: I think on the left, I think people like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren really believe. That all their plans are going to work and just make the world wonderful. They really believe it. And I think with Republicans, they just don't believe what they're, what they're saying.

[00:14:02] Bob Englehart: well, I think with the Republicans, it all comes down to abortion. It's all about abortion and they'll say whatever they have to say to keep their power. it's, and also I think that, with the, evangelicals. they believe the, word of the Bible and that the Bible is, exact science. And I think anybody that believes that will believe anything.

[00:14:21] Dave Whamond: Like Trump is a godly man. 

[00:14:23] Daryl Cagle: I think abortion is just one thing on their list. I mean, they are certainly obsessed with sex. 

[00:14:30] Bob Englehart: Also think that these people are victims and then probably a lot of them were sexually abused as children and have never dealt with it. And, and, and so that's, they go into the sexual thing. I mean, It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. 

[00:14:46] Pat Bagley: So, so, being in Utah for almost 50 years doing cartoons, I occasionally get these people who run on a purity platform.

[00:14:54] Pat Bagley: Yeah. They're against pornography, they're against nudity, and they, you know, bring this up in the legislature. And there was this guy named Robert Estes, who gained a lot of traction here because he was just a crusader against, pornography and against underage sex and blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's the guy who hit Justice Blackmun who's speaking at the University of Utah and he goes up on the stage and he punches him.

[00:15:16] Pat Bagley: He hits him. And then it turns out later that this Estes character was creeping on young girls. So it's always projection. That's not the only, that's not the only example I could bring you about what's going on in, in these right wing, very religious circles because it happens here in Utah all the time.

[00:15:34] Pat Bagley: You know, they're very religious. They're very Mormon. They're very rigid. but then you've got the speaker of the house, 10 years ago, who is. hot tubbing naked with a 16 year old girl, he gets up there and he confesses to the entire house. He confesses and they give him a standing ovation. 

[00:15:50] Taylor Jones: Oh, 

[00:15:51] Bob Englehart: man, 

[00:15:52] Taylor Jones: Pat, I thought since you've been in Utah for so long or had been, I thought that one thing that separated the Mormons was a real healthy, uh, attitude towards sex in general among Mormons.

[00:16:01] Pat Bagley: Well, I'm grateful to have grown up Mormon, because sex will always be dirty to me. 

[00:16:05] Taylor Jones: Oh, okay. Fine. I was mistaken. 

[00:16:08] Daryl Cagle: , every time I sit down to talk about dogs, we end up talking about religious extremism.

[00:16:14] Taylor Jones: Daryl, uh, the earlier The Hitler podcast. You said that, everything eventually winds up with a reference to Hitler. Are we going to get to that here? 

[00:16:21] Daryl Cagle: Godwin's law. I think we just mentioned Hitler, Taylor. Very good. 

[00:16:26] Daryl Cagle: here's, this is one of my first Trumps before I knew how to draw Trump at all.

[00:16:30] Daryl Cagle: And this was when he had just knocked off all of those, GOP challengers in the primaries. 

[00:16:34] Taylor Jones: Yeah, that's good. But you got those, you got those little, those funny little lips of his, right? You get just the way, you know, they kind of, they kind of really sort of, just a little tiny pout sticking out. 

[00:16:45] Daryl Cagle: Oh, I look at this Trump and I cringe.

[00:16:47] Daryl Cagle: That's not what he should look like. We don't have, we've gone beyond drawing him what he should look like. All we have to do is have a few of those cues of Trump and we can do anything. , 

[00:16:56] Dave Whamond: it's almost like, impressionists they kind of go overboard with the impressions. Now I remember even George Bush and Dana Carvey.

[00:17:03] Dave Whamond: He did the Na Ganda, It was like way over the top. He didn't sound like that at all. But everyone knew who knew who he was. Uh, imitating . 

[00:17:09] Daryl Cagle: So this is from Joep Bertrams, and this is an exuberant Trump humping the leg of Macron . I think this is funny. I don't think we get, dog humping cartoons reprinted much, but you know, I haven't tracked that either.

[00:17:22] Bob Englehart: I like his style. It's always a square cartoon. It fills with every, all the drawing fills the frame. There's something about it that, uh, it's unique. Yeah, definitely. 

[00:17:31] Taylor Jones: And this has some real good humping action. You can kind of feel it. 

[00:17:34] Daryl Cagle: Yeah. There was a time there when he was just, so enamored of Macron because Macron had these big military parades.

[00:17:41] Daryl Cagle: he wanted to do that. Right, right. He never quite achieved that. 

[00:17:45] Dave Whamond: At the same time, I think he, he dislikes or is threatened by politicians that are better looking than he is, like, he doesn't like Trudeau. He doesn't like Macron. I think, I think he had an issue with him at one point because he's better looking and Trump has to think he's the top dog.

[00:17:59] Taylor Jones: Although earlier, early in, Trump's presidency, which kind of dovetailed with Macron's. Macron was very open and welcoming to, Trump and Melania, Macron's tried to stay on, uh, he tried to stay on Trump's right side, the whole time.

[00:18:13] Daryl Cagle: It's hard to get to the right of Trump. 

[00:18:15] Taylor Jones: I mean, In a social way, very good. But these 

[00:18:18] Pat Bagley: world leaders kind of have to keep on the right side of Trump because he's the most powerful for sure 

[00:18:23] Daryl Cagle: So here's one of my Trumps he's getting bit by Omirosa I remember Omirosa and Omirosa really did turn against him.

[00:18:29] Daryl Cagle: She wrote a Trump bashing book. And I thought that was all great fun. And we had a whole bunch of very nice Omarosa cartoons, but Omarosa has kind of sadly been forgotten. And, she was fun for a week. 

[00:18:41] Bob Englehart: Where, where is she now? 

[00:18:42] Daryl Cagle: Oh, she's gone. So Taylor, tell us about this one. You've got Trump and his lookalike friend.

[00:18:48] Taylor Jones: Boris, Johnson, you know, they both have that crazy hair and different kind of crazy hair and Boris, was very much , kind of aped Trump's style in some ways, being very brusque and kind of, you know, just forcing himself on, upon people.

[00:19:00] Taylor Jones: Different on the environment, I'll say that. But, I just thought that, that just came to me, you can Google dogs that look like their owners and you're going to find Endless pictures of this sort of thing. 

[00:19:09] Daryl Cagle: so you think that Boris Johnson was real toady to Trump? 

[00:19:13] Taylor Jones: Partly. Yes. I think so.

[00:19:15] Taylor Jones: I think that the British Tory party when Johnson was, in charge, wanted to kind of, um, Sort of be Trump lookalikes or not, well, lookalikes, but they wanted to be like Trump this course just goes back to Brexit and things like that.

[00:19:28] Pat Bagley: I love how Taylor's, um, these details that he throws in there, and they're just lovely. For instance, look at the buttons on Trump's sleeve. you can almost reach out and touch them. 

[00:19:37] Taylor Jones: He always has four. 

[00:19:38] Daryl Cagle: Really, it's always four.

[00:19:39] Dave Whamond: I never noticed that. 

[00:19:40] Taylor Jones: He wears expensive blazers.



[00:19:42] Daryl Cagle: 

[00:19:42] Daryl Cagle: I like the lips on Boris nose. It looks very intimate. 

[00:19:46] Daryl Cagle: That was my point. 

[00:19:47] Daryl Cagle: The lick. And here you've got, uh, Doggy Pence. There are actually quite a few, uh, Doggy Pence cartoons because Pence was so toady. 

[00:19:57] Taylor Jones: Yeah, a true lapdog. Yeah. 

[00:19:59] Daryl Cagle: This is lovely. I like the Nazi Eric. 

[00:20:01] Taylor Jones: I'm trying to think of, um, I don't know if it's Purdue university in Indiana was a white bulldog.

[00:20:07] Taylor Jones: And, and that's what gave me, I guess that's 

[00:20:09] Daryl Cagle: Oh, University of Georgia. Well, there's that too. 

[00:20:11] Bob Englehart: Yale has a, Yale's a bulldog too. 

[00:20:14] Taylor Jones: Maybe it's, yeah, okay, I, I, but that, that, he just struck me, he struck me as the mascot, uh, the bulldog mascot for apparently any number of universities. 

[00:20:23] Bob Englehart: Yeah. It works. It works. 

[00:20:25] Taylor Jones: Thank you. 

[00:20:26] Daryl Cagle: Yeah, the the Bulldog for University of Georgia is just a wonderful cartoonist thing because you know, they've had Jack Davis, you know, just going to mention their, their Bulldog for what decades and decades. Maybe that's, it's just the most wonderful art of any of the college mascots.

[00:20:41] Taylor Jones: UGA. That's the name of the dog? UGA. UGA. University of Georgia. UGA. 

[00:20:46] Daryl Cagle: Back to the cartoon. 

[00:20:48] Pat Bagley: Something I wanted to point out here. So, uh, the Utah legislature recently banned DEI offices in universities, which is 

[00:20:56] Daryl Cagle: Explain DEI.

[00:20:56] Pat Bagley: Diversity, Equity, 

[00:20:58] Pat Bagley: Inclusion, right? 

[00:20:59] Daryl Cagle: Diversity, Equity, Inclusion. 

[00:21:02] Pat Bagley: Okay, it actually means Don Jr., Eric, and Ivanka.

[00:21:06] Pat Bagley: That's a true DEI. 

[00:21:08] Dave Whamond: Yeah, let's get some conspiracy theories going here. 

[00:21:10] Taylor Jones: That's the germ of a cartoon right there. Republican DEI. 

[00:21:16] Daryl Cagle: Pat, I thought this cartoon was great. I love the body language on the Nazi dog. Nazi dog is just great.

[00:21:23] Daryl Cagle: The foaming at the mouth is great. The red eyes are great. Trump holding the meat is great. the little, pussy hat lady is great. This is just, I just love the drawing of this one. 

[00:21:35] Pat Bagley: Oh, thank you. I'm kind of proud of this one, but I was just thinking the other day, what happened to all those pink pussy hats?

[00:21:40] Pat Bagley: Yeah.

[00:21:41] Dave Whamond: Yeah. It was kind of a thing of the past.

[00:21:43] Taylor Jones: They'll be back.. 

[00:21:44] Pat Bagley: Huge, uh, rallies coming out against Trump's fascism, which is what it is. 

[00:21:51] Taylor Jones: I'll make one prediction for next year. If Trump is back in office, I think it's going to be, if that happens, if that happens, it's going to be four years. Of nonstop civil unrest and of course, that's going to egg Trump on because he's going to want to use the army to, try to stop the protest, but I think among other things, you'll see the pink hats back.

[00:22:12] Taylor Jones: Yeah, 

[00:22:13] Daryl Cagle: I think they're still kind of around. My wife was knitting. These hats for a long time for my daughter and for friends and things it was they were passing around the the plans for making your pussy hats and It was such a big thing

[00:22:29] Taylor Jones: again. I like the lips here Pat. 

[00:22:31] Dave Whamond: Mm hmm 

[00:22:32] Pat Bagley: Oh, thank you. 

[00:22:33] Dave Whamond: And that dog is terrific like I love the big graphic shape dogs are always a struggle to get the anatomy right with a legs for me But yeah, you just nailed it there 

[00:22:41] Pat Bagley: Well, 

[00:22:41] Pat Bagley: thank you.

[00:22:42] Pat Bagley: Thank you. 

[00:22:43] Daryl Cagle: This is one of my all time favorites of yours, Pat. You've got the MAGA dog drinking out of the Fox News toilet. Um, I think sometime I'm going to do a podcast just on Trump and toilets. Um, that should be a good one for us. I'll put this cartoon back in. This is wonderful. Tell us about your cartoon.

[00:23:03] Pat Bagley: I put this out there and people say, no, no, no, no, no. But I think you can trace the fall of the American system back to the establishment of Fox News, which was started in 1996. And since then you've seen a rapid fall off in trust in the institutions that make us a nation. The institutions like the courts, Congress, the presidency.

[00:23:22] Pat Bagley: People don't trust anything anymore, and it's didn't start with Fox News, but Fox News accelerated it. 

[00:23:27] Taylor Jones: Pat, can I ask you, now, of course, you did this for the Salt Lake Tribune, and you, you mentioned about the conservatism of Utah, the certain Utah legislature. I guess, Salt Lake City is something of a democratic city, isn't it, in in the midst of it all?

[00:23:39] Taylor Jones: because, this is not a conservative cartoon and, none of your cartoons are conservative as far as I can tell. And does the Salt Lake City Tribune have, like, lots of enemies? People, they, they read it, but they hate it because of a political stance it takes.

[00:23:51] Pat Bagley: Oh yeah, there's a lot of hate reading going on here. Um, the Salt Lake Tribune was established 150 years ago to be a counterweight to the LDS church. And it's maintained that position ever since. And it's not anti Mormon. But Mormons don't like to be reported on. And all that we do is report about, things that are happening in Utah.

[00:24:10] Pat Bagley: for instance, an example, if you go to the Tribune website, there's a category called polygamy and you can hit on that. There's nowhere else in the world that you can find a newspaper that, deals with polygamy and it's got its own section. but the Salt Lake Tribune has always had this special place in Utah to be the dissenting voice.

[00:24:25] Pat Bagley: And it's been important. It's, it's important to the culture here.

[00:24:28] Pat Bagley: my grandfather used to take the Deseret News and the Salt Lake Tribune. And so I asked him, why do you take both newspapers? And the Deseret News was owned by the church, still is owned by the church. And he said, well, I take the Deseret News to see what the church is saying about a subject, and I take the Salt Lake Tribune to find out what's really going on.

[00:24:43] Taylor Jones: That's great, On your cartoon, I love the, sketchy back paws. That's just perfect. They're kind of turned in a little bit toward each other and and also the little swirl, the little on the base of the toilet there. Which every toilet has.

[00:24:57] Daryl Cagle: Very good. Bob, here you've got dog whistle blower Trump and he's blowing make America great again the inner city is hell, good people on both sides, all lives matter. Send her back that wonderful bald spot on his head and looks great. 

I have to admit, I've kind of gotten tired of drawing Trump.

[00:25:15] Bob Englehart: I mean, I'm, I'm sure I will get, get back in the groove, but, uh, I'm just getting tired of Trump in general.

[00:25:21] Pat Bagley: Well, hopefully the rest of the country feels that way. 

[00:25:23] Bob Englehart: I'm very confident that, and you can put, - and you heard it here first, Trump will lose. He will lose big time and the Democrats will win. 

[00:25:31] Dave Whamond: Yeah, there are those who say might even not be the nominee still like it might not be like it's written in stone, but a lot of people think, with everything going on, he may not, uh, make it 

[00:25:42] Taylor Jones: well, most presidential election years have had some serious surprises and it's early yet.

[00:25:46] Bob Englehart: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:25:48] Daryl Cagle: So Bob, explain this one to us. You've got a dog. Dog has no label on him. So it's just a real dog and the dog is chewing on a trump bone.

[00:25:58] Bob Englehart: I have no idea what it means. I just like the 

[00:26:03] Bob Englehart: drawing. 

[00:26:03] Daryl Cagle: You could have put a label on him and it could have meant all kinds of things. I 

[00:26:07] Bob Englehart: could put anything on him.

[00:26:08] Bob Englehart: Could put a Nazi swastika on it. I don't know. Anything works. I have no idea what it means.

[00:26:15] Bob Englehart: If you have an idea of what it means, let me know. 

[00:26:18] Daryl Cagle: I remember this wonderful thing from the Simpsons where they had, I think it was a blimp or something, and it said, Fox News, not racist, but Number one among racists. I thought that was hilarious. And that, you know, that works for Nazis too. yeah, that could be a Nazi dog chewing on his, comfort food.

[00:26:35] Taylor Jones: Pardon the sunglasses, but, the glare from the ring light, Since I'm not allowed to have the light, the ceiling light on, it gets too much after a while. Well, your 

[00:26:42] Daryl Cagle: glasses make you look like a cross eyed, googly eyed character. 

[00:26:45] Dave Whamond: Yeah, 

[00:26:48] Daryl Cagle: that's not an improvement.

[00:26:51] Daryl Cagle: Dave, tell us about your dog whistle cartoon. you got a dog whistle with a tweet and a really blowing out the racist tweets. 

[00:26:59] Dave Whamond: Yeah, I think that this started with just the play on the trumpet, you know, and I was thinking I got to throw that in a cartoon somehow.

[00:27:06] Dave Whamond: And then the dog whistle, someone was talking about a lot of what he says. Is a dog whistle and so that just kind of all came together and, to tell you the truth, I don't remember doing this one either. So yeah, 

[00:27:17] Daryl Cagle: I love it. For those who just listened on audio. Trump's lips are a big trumpet. Yeah, I should mention to that Studies have shown that people who listen to podcasts on YouTube, they turn on video.

[00:27:30] Daryl Cagle: They don't listen to audio. They turn on the video and then they set their phone down and don't look at the video and just listen to it. So even the ones that are getting our video are probably not looking at your cartoon. So we must explain that his lips are a trumpet. 

[00:27:45] Taylor Jones: I love the rendering of the dog whistle here.

[00:27:47] Taylor Jones: Uh, also I'm wondering, Has anybody, any of you, ever used a dog whistle? Do you know anyone who's ever used a dog whistle? No, never have. 

[00:27:54] Pat Bagley: I did when I was a kid. 

[00:27:56] Taylor Jones: Oh, you did? Okay. 

[00:27:57] Pat Bagley: Long time ago, yeah. 

[00:27:58] Dave Whamond: So, you don't hear anything when you do, when you blow the dog whistle, right? Like, there's no sound at all?

[00:28:03] Pat Bagley: Nothing. 

[00:28:03] Daryl Cagle: Does it annoy the dog? Does it make him howl?



[00:28:05] Pat Bagley: They're not happy about it. They definitely hear it, but they don't howl, they just, What? What?

[00:28:10] Daryl Cagle: So Dave, here's another nice one. Another Wagging the Dog cartoon, where you've got the Middle East, Turning around to bite Trump in the butt. 

[00:28:18] Dave Whamond: Yeah. See, again, something must've been going on with Iran back then, cause he's wagging the Iran tail. And, uh, I guess you could use that right now, just replace, Trump.

[00:28:28] Dave Whamond: But, I like how he says he never had any problems. When, when he was in office, and I guess here's some evidence that something was happening because I remember thinking it's only like the way he's handling this situation, he's going to get nipped in the butt pretty quickly. 

[00:28:42] Daryl Cagle: So, maybe when he had, Suleimani assassinated, 

[00:28:45] Dave Whamond: yeah, it could have been.

[00:28:46] Dave Whamond: Yeah, I think that's what it probably was. 

[00:28:48] Taylor Jones: Yeah, it seems to me Trump's foreign policy and military policy that nobody's going to do anything. Nobody's going to pull any, try to pull anything Putin or Xi Jinping, because they don't know how Trump will respond.

[00:28:59] Taylor Jones: And, I suppose that works in a way, but it could also start World War III. 

[00:29:03] Daryl Cagle: Well, it seems pretty clear that he's going to withdraw any support for Ukraine and be the Putin toady again.

[00:29:09] Taylor Jones: Well, of course he likes to say that had he, been in the White House these past four years, Putin never would have invaded Ukraine.

[00:29:16] Taylor Jones: And if that were the case, it's only because probably Putin would have had no idea how, how Trump was going to react and therefore better not do anything, you know? Uh, but again, I think that's a risky, pretty risky, 

[00:29:25] Daryl Cagle: I don't think that works anymore, though, because he can pretty well be sure of how Trump would react.

[00:29:30] Taylor Jones: True. 

[00:29:31] Bob Englehart: I think, I think Putin knew exactly how to manipulate Trump and he was doing it. He was doing it.



[00:29:37] Dave Whamond: I think that Putin thought that, if he waited for a second Trump term, then NATO would be gone and he'd have free reign. So I think that's what he, he miscalculated those. Yeah. 

[00:29:46] Daryl Cagle: That may yet happen.

[00:29:47] Dave Whamond: Yeah, true. 

[00:29:48] Daryl Cagle: So here's one of mine, and this is another What the Doggy Hears cartoon. The Republican master says, Don't vote for Trump! And What the Doggy Hears, vote for Trump. This was, of course, back at the beginning when, the party establishment was trying to steer everyone away from Trump with no success.

[00:30:06] Daryl Cagle: that, that effort did not work, and of course, there's no effort that way now. 

[00:30:11] Taylor Jones: I like the two elephants here, Daryl. 

[00:30:12] Daryl Cagle: Oh, thank you. 

[00:30:13] Dave Whamond: Yeah. And further to that point, I remember, Lindsey Graham had a tweet that everyone keeps bringing back now and says, if we, bring Trump in, we'll be destroyed and we'll deserve it.

[00:30:25] Dave Whamond: And now he's,, he's kind of, completely changed his view. He's a, another Trump lapdog. 

[00:30:32] Bob Englehart: When Trump was running, I think in 2015 or maybe it was after he was elected in 16, Lindsey Graham had a moment of honesty and he said, my party is bat poop crazy. 

[00:30:42] Taylor Jones: know, 

[00:30:43] Bob Englehart: it was a 

[00:30:44] Daryl Cagle: moment of honesty.

[00:30:45] Taylor Jones: Very good. It doesn't 

[00:30:47] Bob Englehart: have the same meaning. It has, it's 

[00:30:50] Dave Whamond: funny, your bat poop. I like it. 

[00:30:53] Taylor Jones: Lindsey Graham every now and then he'll say something quite truthful and sort of shockingly truthful about Trump and other stuff.

[00:30:59] Taylor Jones: It's almost like he's got some, he's got some truth serum, IV. And then once in a while, a little dose of this truth serum comes in and he'll suddenly speak the truth. And then he goes back to, his usual schtick. 

[00:31:10] Bob Englehart: It's like he deserves a pat on the back. 

[00:31:12] Dave Whamond: Well, even on January 6th happened, I think he was one of the people that said, that's it, I'm done.

[00:31:16] Dave Whamond: We got to get this guy out of here and never go back to Trump. And then next week he was back to, you know, praising Trump again. So I can't understand it. 

[00:31:24] Daryl Cagle: Here's another one of my Trump and doggie with, Putin saying kick NATO again for me, Donald. And, uh, Trump has given the boot to the NATO doggie.

[00:31:34] Daryl Cagle: That's good. You know, NATO may be, in trouble if Trump comes back and that is very scary. Good cartoon here. I like it. This one is from J. D. Crow and you've got Grinch Trump with, uh, doggie reindeer, Mitch McConnell saying nothing to impeach here. And he's sitting on his big Christmas, sled full of lies, abuse of power, obstruction. but. it's just the Trump as the Grinch with his posture that makes me laugh.

[00:32:03] Daryl Cagle: This cartoon is all about posture, both Mitch and Trump, and it's not very often that a cartoon has posture that makes 

[00:32:11] Daryl Cagle: me laugh. 

[00:32:12] Taylor Jones: I like, too, the, tie that is also the leash that is also the cord around the bag of lies. Yeah, I didn't notice 

[00:32:18] Dave Whamond: that. Yeah. 

[00:32:19] Daryl Cagle: So I thought this was a wonderful cartoon.

[00:32:22] Dave Whamond: Yeah, the whip is pretty funny too. I like how it just kind of echoes what's going on with the bags and the, and the sleds. 

[00:32:28] Daryl Cagle: you look at a cartoon that's drawn this funny. Uh, you kind of forget the gag of the cartoon and just remember how funny the drawing is.

[00:32:36] Daryl Cagle: And this one is from our Monty Wolverton. He's drawing the dog whistler with an ambitious drawing of, The Republican convention filled with, dogs as delegates, I would not want to sit and draw this. And, you can see how he took a few little tricky steps at drawing a thousand dogs in the, crowd, but, a, very ambitious cartoon.

[00:32:57] Daryl Cagle: You know, graphically, I think 

[00:32:58] Taylor Jones: notice, 

[00:32:59] Pat Bagley: notice also that they're all white dogs. 

[00:33:02] Taylor Jones: Yeah, right. Yes. and Monty's got some little graphic tricks here, which are really nice. Having that little space of black on my, on the bottom. Uh, that, you know, that, that kind of, that, that seems to help make it look kind of real in a way.

[00:33:18] Taylor Jones: Like they're, they're all together, but there's a little, you know, little spaces and, it's 

[00:33:21] Taylor Jones: good.

[00:33:22] Daryl Cagle: Is there a statement being made with the, the musical note being backwards?

[00:33:26] Bob Englehart: No. 

[00:33:26] Daryl Cagle: Ha ha! Ha ha! 

[00:33:30] Bob Englehart: It just means, it means Trump is dyslexic. Either Trump is dyslexic or Monty is. 

[00:33:35] Pat Bagley: White dogs matter maybe. I dunno. 

[00:33:37] Taylor Jones: Ha 

[00:33:38] Daryl Cagle: All the white dogs is funny. 

[00:33:39] Pat Bagley: Here's the thing, he's one of the only 

[00:33:42] Taylor Jones: presidents that's never had a 

[00:33:44] Pat Bagley: dog in the White House. He's not had a pet, 

[00:33:46] Pat Bagley: right? Yes, that's true. When was the last time the president didn't have a dog. 

[00:33:50] Taylor Jones: That's true, although I have to say, I'd rather have a president who doesn't really want pets, not have them, then there have been too many presidents, I think, that Clinton's come to mind, where you really wonder if they cared at all for either Buddy or Socks.

[00:34:03] Taylor Jones: And, the Bushes love their, their dogs. Uh, they all have the same kind of dog. Um, it's a Scotty, isn't it? It wasn't that the Bush's dog? Oh, yeah. 

[00:34:10] Dave Whamond: Yeah. I remember George Bush dropping one 

[00:34:12] Dave Whamond: of, one of the dogs once. 

[00:34:14] Taylor Jones: Back when Reagan was president, here's another person who had no.

[00:34:17] Taylor Jones: Business having a pet and it was when Reagan and Gorbachev were meeting in Reykjavik for one of their conferences and Time Magazine, had a story about, the cover story about, the, conference.

[00:34:29] Taylor Jones: And inside, they had full page pictures, one of, Reagan and his dog, and the other with Gorbachev and his beloved cat. And you could tell, that Reagan, couldn't care less, about the dog, and I'm not sure he even knew it was other than just a prop in the picture, whereas you could tell that, that Gorbachev really loved his cat, and in fact, that was the cat that later When, the Gorbachev's had to get out of Russia quickly as everything was falling.

[00:34:53] Taylor Jones: I remember that they had to stop and go back and get their cat. That to get, so they bring their cat on the plane with them, but they, they, you know, they wouldn't leave until they had their cat. And, and I like it when, when, when a president, presidential family loves their pets. And I'd rather otherwise than not, not have them.

[00:35:08] Daryl Cagle: We just had Biden with his biting dog Commander. 

[00:35:11] Dave Whamond: I was just going to mention that.

[00:35:12] Taylor Jones: But he loved big dogs. I think, you know, that's a different story, I guess Commander's under control back in Wilmington. 

[00:35:19] Daryl Cagle: You talk about Clinton not caring about his cat Socks, but boy was cat Socks in the cartoons during that time.

[00:35:26] Daryl Cagle: Socks the cat was just observing everything and commenting and all kinds of cartoons. I think probably the biggest presidential dog moment was, Lyndon Johnson lifting his dog by the ears, that just dominated editorial cartoons. It was a standard, thing for editorial cartoons, lifting by the ears.

[00:35:46] Daryl Cagle: dogs are a wonderful tradition in editorial cartoons.

[00:35:49] Taylor Jones: Johnson couldn't care, care less about his dogs either. They were just, they were just, hounds, hunting hounds. and a lot of people in Texas have them on their, ranches or what have you. Often they aren't in the home, they just stay in a pen when they're not hunting.

[00:35:59] Taylor Jones: And, of course FDR loved his little Scotty, Fala. That was another dog that was a, became sort of famous.

[00:36:06] Daryl Cagle: And Nixon loved Checkers. 

[00:36:07] Taylor Jones: Eh, I don't think so. Or, or King, King Timmaho from the, when he was president. 

[00:36:14] Daryl Cagle: What was this dog when he was president? King Timmaho. Oh, that's very impressive, Taylor. 

[00:36:19] Dave Whamond: No kidding.

[00:36:20] Daryl Cagle: Okay. Gentlemen, that is the end of our dog podcast. Remember to subscribe to the Caglecast wherever you're watching or listening today. Go to Cagle.com/subscribe, you'll get our newsletter and you'll get an announcement of every new podcast and you'll get all kinds of wonderful cartoons and it costs nothing and what a deal. our Caglecast is available in both video and audio versions. It's on all of the platforms. It's on YouTube.com/@caglecast, it's on Caglecast.Com. It's on Apple podcasts and Spotify. So come and watch and look at all the cartoons. And gentlemen, I've just been delighted to have you today. Thank you. 

[00:36:58] Dave Whamond: Thanks for having us. Thanks.

[00:36:59] Taylor Jones: Nice meeting you, Pat and Bob. Yeah, good to meet you guys.

[00:37:02] Bob Englehart: Nice meeting you too. 

[00:37:03] Dave Whamond: Good to see you again.

[00:37:04] Dave Whamond: Good to 

[00:37:04] Daryl Cagle: see you guys again too. Yes. Okay. I'll have you back for the next one. I in in coming weeks. I think we're gonna do Trump in the toilet because we can do a whole podcast on toilets. I'll be right there. Excellent.