[00:00:00] Daryl Cagle: Hi, I'm Daryl Cagle, and this is the CagleCast, where we're all about political cartoons, and today I'm talking to Rivers, who is our anonymous, very conservative cartoonist let's start with this first donkey and elephant, donkey democrat says, I still love you, man, even though you're a fascist for supporting Trump.

[00:00:21] Daryl Cagle: And the elephant says, I love you too, even though you obviously enjoy innocent Ukrainian children being blown apart by cluster bombs because you 

[00:00:31] Rivers: support Biden. Yeah, well, the idea of course, is that, Republicans often get, blamed for supporting Trump because, obviously they, they support everything about Trump, which isn't necessarily true.

[00:00:41] Rivers: So I was just throwing that back just to say, well, you know, just because you, support somebody over another person doesn't mean that you necessarily attribute or you subscribe to all of their, uh, antics. 

[00:00:55] Daryl Cagle: Well, you know, it's a small minority of Republicans that don't support the military aid to Ukraine.

[00:01:00] Rivers: yeah, that is true, and I think I'm probably one of them. I don't think that it's a, it's a good idea to continue to, push weapons on a country that is inevitably gonna lose this war, or perhaps even draw the rest world into , a direct military contact with Russia. 

[00:01:17] Daryl Cagle: you don't think that withdrawing military support from them would lead to drawing more countries into the war. You'd see the Baltic States and Poland immediately jump into it to support Ukraine. Yeah, 

[00:01:28] Rivers: not, not necessarily. I mean, we're, we're speculating here, but I would say that, we're looking at a situation in which, Russia is a nuclear powered country.

[00:01:36] Rivers: I think we need to treat them with respect. they obviously had a, a reason, uh, which, uh, you know, just so you hear this, I don't support Putin at all. I, I think what he did was, was, um, Beyond the pale, but at the same time, uh, they had been warning, NATO and uh, the United States that, uh, they always found, the Ukraine's inclusion into NATO as a direct threat to them.

[00:01:59] Rivers: And, they've obviously Had some longstanding issues with, uh, Ukraine. So again, Putin.

[00:02:12] Rivers: We absolutely don't. I think the guy's a, uh, a maniac, but at the same time, uh, you know, we're not completely, innocent in all of this either. We've, we've obviously done some things to trigger. And I, and, and as I understand, um, you know... You know, if 

[00:02:27] Daryl Cagle: you were fully supportive of Putin, these are just the things that you would say.

[00:02:31] Rivers: Right. And that's, that's not necessarily supporting Putin. That's just, uh, acknowledging that there is... Some inconsistency with our arguments is it's the same as we could have because I know Russia has asked for peace at least twice now and the U. S. has basically denied that offer. So, I don't know what the end game is here because at some point, um, you know, we could end up having, as I said, a direct settlement.

[00:02:58] Rivers: Military conflict with Russia, and that would be a very, very bad thing because they have some they have. Well, they have pretty good military arsenal. They have a really good nuclear arsenal, and they could easily make it a very bad day for most of the U. S. 

[00:03:15] Daryl Cagle: so, You're fine With them getting rid of all those neo-Nazis in Ukraine and rebuilding their empire because, we shouldn't be involved in this.

[00:03:23] Daryl Cagle: And they're a country that deserves respect. 

[00:03:27] Rivers: Um, I didn't say that either. I think that, as I said, they've, they've struck for peace, peace twice now. So. Well, they've asked for, for negotiations twice now to, you know, to, uh, to end this war. And the U. S. has directly intervened and said, no. So we are in a situation in which for some reason, I don't know what the end game is because we're, the Ukrainians aren't going to win this war.

[00:03:56] Rivers: I mean, it's very clear that Russia has a, um, a much greater army and they're going to, uh, eventually wear out the Ukrainians. Uh, so we can send them as many, you know, uh, tanks, uh, and, uh, airplanes and whatever we want to send them. The reality is, is that, uh, Russia just has a much more vast, uh, um, array of weapons and people.

[00:04:21] Rivers: And so they're eventually going to lose this war, and for what end? Um, and, and... How, why is that clear to you? Just simply because it's, it's inevitable, because Russia has way more in terms of their military, uh, strength. I mean, it's, I, I really don't... But they're also 

[00:04:37] Daryl Cagle: corrupt and incompetent. Well, 

[00:04:39] Rivers: that's very true.

[00:04:40] Rivers: And, you know, again, you know, so you hear me, again, I don't, I don't like... What the Russians are doing. I don't, I don't like this war. I wish, uh, like, um, uh, you know, like Trump has said, at this point, it's a matter of saving lives, right? You're like, nobody likes to see... 

[00:04:57] Daryl Cagle: So when they invade Lithuania next, you'd be okay with, not being involved at all in that too?

[00:05:04] Daryl Cagle: Of course that's different because they're in NATO, but, uh, how different is that really? 

[00:05:08] Rivers: Oh, they're in NATO, so there's Article 5, right? And I, and I, again, you know, I think And you, 

[00:05:14] Daryl Cagle: you respect that. You wouldn't, you wouldn't respect the, the Russians over, over, uh, NATO. So the only reason regarding Ukraine is that they're just not in, in NATO for you.

[00:05:25] Rivers: Well, no, that's the thing, is that, I mean, Russia has been, uh, for many years, Saying that, that they aren't, they are, are, are not prepared to have Ukraine and NATO. That is a, it's, it's, it's non negotiable. 

[00:05:39] Daryl Cagle: You, you think this is about NATO?

[00:05:40] Rivers: It's been, it's, they have been warning about this for a very long time.

[00:05:45] Rivers: I'm sure that there's some too. 

[00:05:46] Daryl Cagle: It's one of a list of, of dozens of things that they complain 

[00:05:49] Rivers: about. There's absolutely there, there's a list of things for sure. But I mean, it's a war that, that the Ukrainians are, are, uh, uh, they, they're being depleted. Um, it's their, it's their young men that are being killed.

[00:06:01] Rivers: Um, um, you know, we're, we're basically sustaining a war that's unwinnable. As I said, you know, if the Russians are prepared to sit down and talk, why wouldn't we want to talk? So Daryl, what is the endgame? You tell me. 

[00:06:16] Daryl Cagle: The reason we wouldn't want to talk is that they went negotiations with America and not Ukraine, and they attacked Ukraine.

[00:06:23] Daryl Cagle: It's not the role of America to negotiate. On behalf of Ukraine, when they refuse to talk to Ukraine, they're attacking and killing Ukrainians, they want to negotiate with us because what they want is to take over Ukraine and have us not give them any support. They're not negotiating an end to the war.

[00:06:42] Daryl Cagle: They're trying to make a deal with this country that's bothering them, that's outside of the conflict. 

[00:06:48] Rivers: Right, and that's understandable, considering it's the U. S. that's supplying Ukraine with the weapons. 

[00:06:54] Daryl Cagle: And it's also understandable why the United States... States would not accept that negotiation. 

[00:07:00] Rivers: Well, then, then what is the end game?

[00:07:02] Rivers: Are we going to end up? 

[00:07:03] Daryl Cagle: The end game is Russia falls apart because they're corrupt and incompetent. Oh, 

[00:07:07] Rivers: I don't know about that. That's very possible. I, I, I, I, that would 

[00:07:11] Rivers: certainly have a history of falling 

[00:07:13] Rivers: apart. Oh, that would be lovely. I mean, we would all love that. And I think, um, uh, you know, that would be kind of like a dream come true, but at the same time, um, 

[00:07:23] Daryl Cagle: I think that's much more likely than Ukraine losing.

[00:07:27] Rivers: Potentially. Okay, well, if that is, if that's what you think could happen, if that's, you know, then, then that's fine, but at the same time, I, I think that we are playing a very dangerous game because we're inching ever closer to that, to that time in which we may be involved directly against, uh, uh, Russia and Russia.

[00:07:46] Rivers: I wouldn't, I 

[00:07:47] Daryl Cagle: wouldn't call it a game. You know, it's, it's very serious when one country just decides to murder the civilian populace of their neighbor because they want to rebuild their historical empire, which is really what this is about. It's not about NATO. It's about, wanting to be like Ivan the Terrible and Catherine the Great, a huge Ego on a country that really doesn't have the substance to support the ego.

[00:08:11] Daryl Cagle: When somebody's ego is on the line, when they look like fools, as they have been, that just makes them more dangerous, and more unstable, and more likely to collapse, and more of a mess. And, that's a big achievement for Ukraine so far.

[00:08:26] Rivers: Right, but what happens if they don't fall apart? What happens if your scenario doesn't happen? 

[00:08:31] Daryl Cagle: Then We've clearly shown that... there's a high price for Russia to invade their neighbors and try to rebuild their empire we've, united the world in pushing back, against that and, defending the sovereignty of nations, which is a legacy of World War Two, where we saw that not defending the, sovereignty of nations led to situations that were much, much worse .

[00:08:53] Daryl Cagle: We should learn the lessons of history. 

[00:08:56] Rivers: Yeah. And the lessons of history are also, um, you know, present with when you keep being warned, uh, not to do something and you do something you, you, you can often enter into conflict. I mean, we had, we had a situation in 1962 in which the U. S. was very firm about not having missiles in Cuba, and we almost entered into a nuclear war, with, uh, the USSR at that time.

[00:09:21] Rivers: Right? So. With Russia, as I said, many times they have said that they do not want Uh, and I know we just, we just talked about this, so we're beating a dead horse, but they're very clear about the presence of NATO they see it as a direct threat, uh, being constantly, um, uh, at their doorstep, basically, harassed by this, by this country.

[00:09:46] Rivers: So, um, Again, I'm not a Putin fan, I don't like Putin, I don't like anything about what they're doing, but at the same time, there was plenty of warning about this, and we, we certainly could have, mitigated the outcome, and we didn't, 

[00:10:02] Daryl Cagle: the position you take on this puts you in the camp of the nuttiest, farthest right wing, Trumpy, Republicans, uh, minority of Republicans, I should say, because most of them aren't that crazy, and, uh... So you're 

[00:10:15] Rivers: calling me crazy? 

[00:10:17] Daryl Cagle: I'm saying that you choose the company of the most crazy when you take this position.

[00:10:21] Daryl Cagle: Yeah, but that's... How do you feel about the company you keep? 

[00:10:24] Rivers: Well, okay, so again, so you hear what I'm saying, we are not... I'm not at all interested, and I'm not, at all interested in supporting Putin or any of Putin's, uh, uh, uh, statements or anything that is, you know, Russian misinformation or, or, uh, propaganda.

[00:10:43] Rivers: And 

[00:10:43] Daryl Cagle: neither are you interested in supporting Ukraine. You are, you're taking an entirely isolationist position. You don't want to be involved at all. 

[00:10:51] Rivers: I think that's fair. Yes, I do. I don't think necessarily that the U. S. should be involved in it.

[00:10:56] Rivers: I think that, uh, certainly, as a peacemaker, the U. S. can be involved. But from what I've seen, the U. S. is doing nothing but profiting from war again, sending over weapons. Um, that's, that's... Well, 

[00:11:09] Daryl Cagle: as I see it, what they're doing by sending over weapons is taking the role of the peacemaker. 

[00:11:14] Rivers: you know, you could say that.

[00:11:15] Rivers: But at the same time, there's there's been the opportunities to sit down and end this conflict they've chosen not to. They'd rather just send their weapons. And like I said, your end game obviously seems to be that somehow Russia is going to fall apart. I don't know if that's going to happen.

[00:11:33] Rivers: It would be a dream come true. Like, like I said, I don't support Russia, but at the same time, um, you know, we would, I think that we would benefit if we, if we tried to end this conflict. Find out exactly what it is that that can be agreed on because I think the Ukraine has pushed Russia enough to kind of like say, Hey, this isn't going to be a walkover.

[00:11:55] Rivers: Uh, you know, Russia is losing a lot of a lot of their, people and, their military, uh, assets, obviously their, their infrastructure is, is being, uh, 

[00:12:05] Daryl Cagle: Well, their invasion of Ukraine in military terms has culminated. They've done all that their military can do.

[00:12:11] Daryl Cagle: That's as far as they've gotten. And all they can do now is, defend their position. At least in the way they've conducted the war so far, there's not much left for them. So another possible outcome is that it remains in this state and, uh, Ukraine, can, use this opportunity to get rid of the corruption in their society, which it seems like they're on the road to doing and create a more cohesive state that makes more sense as a member of. NATO and the EU. I think that's, a very plausible, way that this will resolve. And then the greater good that's done by this is that, Russia knows what to expect when they, contemplate invading their other neighbors like all the former Soviet states. So, there are many outcomes to this that could be good.

[00:12:58] Rivers: Right, right. Could be good. But at this time, it looks, it looks Uh, like as if we are marching to a sleepwalking basically into a direct conflict with Russia. And I think that that, as I said, puts us in a very, very serious, um, situation because they are a nuclear powered country. They have made it very clear that they, uh, would, would use these weapons if they felt threatened.

[00:13:26] Rivers: And I think that, we just have to be, you know, respectful of the fact that, uh, that yes, um, you know, obviously that, you know, what we're dealing with is, is a conflict that could have been and should have been, uh, resolved by now and we have refused to, to even hear it. 

[00:13:45] Daryl Cagle: Just about all the same arguments that Neville Chamberlain made about the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia.

[00:13:52] Rivers: Mm, yeah, well, I'm known, I'm no Neville Chamberlain, and, and I don't appreciate the, the inference here, but I do think that, uh,

[00:14:00] Daryl Cagle: But he was a nice, respectable guy. I think you're nice and respectable, Rivers. 

[00:14:05] Rivers: Right, right, right, but, but Neville Chamberlain, I mean, it, obviously, he was, he was, you know, the, the guy that we all use as the, the stereotype, you know, the, the buffoon who bought the whole idea that, that, uh, That, uh, Hitler was a nice guy, and that he could be trusted.

[00:14:22] Rivers: the guy who bought the... 

[00:14:23] Daryl Cagle: He was, judging the costs. He thought that giving, Hitler this, next country and then the next country, was worth it because war would be so terrible. That sounds like the same argument you're making. I mean, he obviously didn't like Hitler, he wanted Hitler to stop, but his judgment of the situation was, don't get involved, let him take that, it's not worth it to us to defend the Sudetenland or Czechoslovakia.

[00:14:50] Rivers: Mm hmm. Yeah, well, I don't see myself as Neville Chamberlain. I mean, obviously, I think it's, it's important to, to have a good military and to stand up for sure. But, um, But in this case, like I said, the science...

[00:15:03] Daryl Cagle: I'm just arguing that we should learn from history. Yes.

[00:15:06] Rivers: And, and we should, and we should learn from history. I mean, obviously the U. S. has played a role here and, and could have and should have, um, made it clear that, Ukraine was never going to be a part of NATO, that they understood that this was non negotiable for Russia. We should have respected that and we didn't.

[00:15:25] Rivers: And, and so now we're in a situation in which we are potentially in a world war situation. With them, a direct, a direct conflict with Russia will not end well, and it will not, and it could involve other countries such as China, and China's obviously shown that they're partial to Russia. Uh, they, they're just looking for a time and a, and a place for the, for the U.

[00:15:49] Rivers: S. to finally be usurped as the number one power in the world. And you have Iran and you have other countries that are circling around Russia as their allies. And so you have the potential for a real, end of the world kind of scenario, at least end of the world for us plebes. Um, I'm sure that the, the people in power will find nice little, uh, bomb shelters to, to, uh, To reside in, but for, for the rest of us, we might end up being destroyed.

[00:16:17] Rivers: And, and that is the scenario that is real. 

[00:16:20] Daryl Cagle: And you don't see this as all the same arguments in start of World War ii. 

[00:16:23] Rivers: Well, world War ii, there, there was never the ability to destroy the world in what, uh, you know, 20 minutes, uh, world War ii, we did not have that. I mean, obviously there is a, there is a much, much darker, uh, component to this and, uh, we need to respect it because we are.

[00:16:41] Rivers: We are playing with a beast here and, and so you don't necessarily have to, tolerate what somebody is doing or, or a power is doing like Russia, you don't necessarily have to agree with it, but you have to respect that you're, you're dealing with a very dangerous animal and you, you're going to have to make sure that if there is peace that can, that can happen, then you should take full advantage of that.

[00:17:08] Rivers: Um, 

[00:17:08] Daryl Cagle: I think perhaps the biggest difference in our opinion is that I view not supporting Ukraine as much more dangerous than supporting Ukraine. 

[00:17:17] Rivers: Well, and that's how you hear this. I support Ukraine in this war. I definitely support Ukraine, and I'm kind of glad that that they're fighting back and that they're winning in some some instance.

[00:17:28] Rivers: I'm trying to say that Russia's got a lot more resources, Russia has some, some weaponry that we don't even have and that they've upgraded their, their strategic nuclear capabilities to include hypersonic, which, which may, uh, uh, you know, I don't know, hopefully it never gets used, 

[00:17:46] Daryl Cagle: they haven't, they haven't sent out the nuclear 

[00:17:49] Rivers: bombs yet. But, but if they do, we have absolutely no defense. 

[00:17:54] Daryl Cagle: We have lots of defense. Not against hypersonic... If they do that, they're destroying themselves. 

[00:17:58] Rivers: Well, that, that is true. So we've always existed on the MAD, uh, mutual assured destruction, uh, uh, policy and hopefully that does still, that still works.

[00:18:07] Rivers: I mean, there is, you know, obviously deterrence is good and, and we have that, but my goodness, we have, they have. Been uh offering to go to the peace table at least twice now and I heard I heard what 

[00:18:22] Daryl Cagle: the peace table Meaning talking to the united states about not supporting ukraine. 

[00:18:27] Rivers: I don't care. I don't care 

[00:18:28] Daryl Cagle: Not the peace table with ukraine.

[00:18:31] Rivers: Okay. I don't care if they talk to to to my mother in law Okay, as long as they are willing to sit down and talk to somebody and and I don't care who's involved, if that means that the Ukrainians aren't, aren't at that table for whatever reason, but if we can at least... 

[00:18:48] Daryl Cagle: Well, I care. It's Ukraine that's getting murdered.

[00:18:52] Rivers: Okay, yes, I agree. But Daryl, we're talking about who would sit down, because your argument is, well, Ukraine wasn't, wasn't invited. And that's the reason why we've decided not to, uh, to go to peace or, you know, to, to sit down with them. My goodness, sit down with them, sit down with Putin, find out what he's willing to negotiate.

[00:19:13] Rivers: Tell him what our non negotiables are. And like, Trump has said many times, if he had, if he had sat down with Putin or if Putin had done this, he would have told him in uncertain terms. And I think he said this, uh, it was kind of a veiled threat that if you do anything, you're going to regret it, right?

[00:19:31] Rivers: So. I think that we need just that strong leadership to say, okay. Let's let's sit down. Let's talk because people are dying. That's the that's the greater good is to sit down and talk and then just say, Look, here's our non negotiables. You've got us. You've got to move out of the territory that you've taken, or there's going to are there going to be more consequences.

[00:19:53] Rivers: You called me Neville Chamberlain, and it's like, uh, you know, like, you know how many times I've drawn Neville Chamberlain as being , the flake who, who basically, you know, ignored the flake.

[00:20:04] Daryl Cagle: He was a very respectable guy. He just had the wrong view of history. 

[00:20:09] Rivers: Well, he did, but he was, he was, he was always striking for, you're right. He always wanted peace when, when he didn't realize that what he was dealing with was, was Hitler. And Hitler, I, I don't know if Putin is Hitler. 

[00:20:22] Daryl Cagle: Well, of course they're culturally different, but Putin wants to rebuild the empire that they were embarrassed to lose. 

[00:20:28] Rivers: Yeah, you might be right. I mean, obviously, what is it, it was Churchill that said that Russia is a enigma wrapped in a mystery. Was that, was that the right quote? But anyways, but that is true, right? Like, how can you, how can you understand Russia and their motivations? I mean, um, they think so much differently than, than we do in the West and what we think is right and wrong.

[00:20:52] Rivers: And, and, uh, you know, the, as you say, , the empire building and what. That what their national pride resides on, like it could be very, very true. What you're saying that, that Putin being a former KGB guy is, is, um, you know, somewhat, um, wants to, wants to have his legacy. And, and actually there's some, of course, been some reports that he's not well, he's physically, um, dying.

[00:21:18] Rivers: And I'm not sure if those. Reports can be trusted. But 

[00:21:23] Daryl Cagle: he certainly has gotten puffy and round. 

[00:21:25] Rivers: Yes, he has. And, and, and he may very well, you know, not have many days left. But, but, you know, the question is, is he, is he working on his legacy? Is he want his legacy be, be that he restored part of the, the old empire?

[00:21:39] Rivers: There's just two outcomes the one that you mentioned which is the hopeful one that Russia is so corrupt and that eventually people will revolt against Putin, but he's never been more popular.

[00:21:52] Rivers: I mean, there's, there's obviously going to be factions within Russia that want to, uh, that will, will disagree and want to take him down. But he's been, he's very popular. Russia is doing very well, by the way. I mean, all the sanctions that we've said that we've thrown their way, that doesn't seem to affect them that much.

[00:22:09] Rivers: They've been pretty happy. So, um,

[00:22:12] Daryl Cagle: well, they have an interesting strategy of, uh, having only the poor. who don't live in Moscow fight the war. And it may be that that strategy is not going to last. 

[00:22:22] Rivers: You know, who fought the Vietnam war, right? Mostly, usually the poor, a lot of the rich people like Trump and, uh, and the Bushes and the, and the Bidens of the world, they didn't, they didn't send their kids off to war.

[00:22:34] Rivers: Um, Uh, you know, or at least not to the Vietnam War. It was, it was mostly the poor kids. Um, so, you know, when you say they've, they send off their poor, it's this, this, this, we're no better. 

[00:22:47] Daryl Cagle: Biden's son, Bo Biden, went off to war. 

[00:22:50] Rivers: No, but I'm talking Vietnam War.

[00:22:52] Rivers: And yes, we do have the occasion. 

[00:22:54] Daryl Cagle: Well, you know, you go to the war of the time that you're living in. 

[00:22:59] Rivers: Right, and the Vietnam War, by and large, was fought by poor people. I mean, you have to 

[00:23:04] Daryl Cagle: Well, people in general are, by and large, poor people. 

[00:23:08] Rivers: Not necessarily at that time in the U.

[00:23:10] Rivers: S., it was, you know, you had a lot of middle class, a lot more than you had today. 

[00:23:15] Daryl Cagle: Well, there certainly are a lot of people that, uh, got deferments and went to college, which wasn't an option for a lot of people to get out of college. Or went to Canada. Or went to Canada. And, uh, I think Canada was, was very nice in that regard.

[00:23:31] Rivers: Right, right. Well, anyways, um, but, but the point is, is that I, I don't see, I, I don't see your argument that they're sending the poor to fight the war as being any different than what we've done in the past. 

[00:23:43] Daryl Cagle: Well, what's different is that Russia is running out of people to, uh, throw into the meat grinder and it appears likely that they need to, Draw a lot more people into service now and they're running out of the easy ones.

[00:23:57] Daryl Cagle: When they get to the tough ones, that can have more impact on their society. And I'm looking forward to seeing that. I, that looks like that's in the works right now. 

[00:24:06] Rivers: Okay, well, and, and then I've just read, uh, um, uh, former U. S. general, he said that, uh, Ukraine is down to a few battalions.

[00:24:13] Rivers: So, the question is, you know, if it's a war of attrition, Uh, who's who's got the more who's got more resources to last this one out? And I think I think it's easy to say Russia does I agree with you. I kind of hope that uh, you know Russia does pay the cost That they they understand that they can't continue to do this and that it will cost them dearly if they, they try this again.

[00:24:40] Rivers: Um, I mean, obviously we, we want it to sting really bad, but at the same time, we could do something to mitigate this other than just send, send a cluster bombs. And, and to me, that is, you know, getting back to that cartoon that we were talking about. That is just the lowest of the low that, you know, you can talk about, uh, human rights violations and cluster bombs being some of the most diabolical, weapons that we have that, that, that often, you know, don't explode and then kids find them and then they, they get blown apart years later or months later by playing in a, you know, some field and, and It's like we all agreed a year ago that cluster bombs was a war crime.

[00:25:24] Rivers: We all agreed that. So how is it that, that Biden gets a pass from, I mean, obviously you voted for Biden and, and so did most of your cartoonists. Why does Biden get a pass , for basically, uh, agreeing to allow a war crime to happen? 

[00:25:41] Daryl Cagle: Well, I think that's, that's an error in observation that most.

[00:25:45] Daryl Cagle: conservatives make that, the Democrats voted for Biden. We had the Democrats voted against Trump. I voted against Trump. I think that's true of all the cartoonists. It's, you're going to be hard pressed to find any of the cartoonists in our group that like Biden. It's hard to find anybody that likes Biden.

[00:26:05] Rivers: I find that hard to believe, Daryl, because a lot of your cartoonists are, uh, uh, just show... In fact, I just saw one today, I think it was Bagley, had one where he, he showed, uh, Biden on skis and he had... Bidenomics had somehow... Uh, escaped, a recession. And you could say, well, that doesn't necessarily mean that he supports Biden.

[00:26:27] Rivers: But I've never, I have not seen, by the way, very many of your cartoonists go after Biden at all. I mean, they may not have liked him, but they certainly. Don't, don't go after him the way they go after, say Trump or DeSantis now is the new bad guy.

[00:26:45] Daryl Cagle: Oh, that's, that's certainly true. It's like during the Bush years, you didn't see, uh, conservative cartoonist drawing Bush, and you didn't 

[00:26:52] Rivers: see, uh, I went after Bush like, you know this because you know who I am.

[00:26:57] Rivers: I went after Bush like a Banshee. I was probably one of the first. And why was that? Perhaps, perhaps that was during, 

[00:27:05] Daryl Cagle: because you used to be a liberal. 

[00:27:07] Rivers: Yeah, because I used to, because I've always been anti war, and I do understand that there are times for war, and there are, and obviously, in the Iraq war, that was a lie.

[00:27:19] Rivers: We, I knew it from the beginning. It was like, and this war. We always try to take on the, the, we're the, we're the, we're on the moral high ground, right? We're, we're Americans and, we have our history and, and our, our ethics and our morals to, to get, you know, to guide us. But the reality is our government doesn't always share those, those values and is very much involved 

[00:27:44] Daryl Cagle: in.

[00:27:44] Daryl Cagle: I've, I've got to disagree with you because, you know, a whole lot of what I do is. It's, uh, Observe Every Darn Editorial Cartoon That Comes In, and, uh, during the years of Bush's, uh, run up to war in Iraq, um, there were remarkably few cartoons that were pushing back against that, and, I was surprised by that.

[00:28:05] Daryl Cagle: And frankly, as I look back on my own cartoons, um, I'm not proud of, uh, all of the supporting of the war in Iraq cartoons that I drew. I regret that. But it's very hard to find cartoonists who were not on that bandwagon, very, very few, and, uh... 

[00:28:22] Rivers: Well, there, there I was, and there I was again, going against the flow, right?

[00:28:26] Rivers: Being, being the...

[00:28:27] Daryl Cagle: I, I would like to see some of those cartoons, because I really remember it being so rare to see one of those, uh... Go back. I, I, Well grab a couple and send them to me because it's easier for you to know 

[00:28:40] Rivers: where they are. I I challenge you after viewing them to call me Neville Chamberlain again because I was on the right side of history then, and I'm on the right side of history now.

[00:28:49] Rivers: It's just. 

[00:28:50] Daryl Cagle: Okay but I should mention that you were just making the argument that many of the liberal cartoonists took that position at the time, and I'm saying that they did not. 

[00:28:58] Rivers: No, okay, that's fair. That's fair 

[00:29:00] Daryl Cagle: Okay, Rivers, that's the end of our, uh, argument about Ukraine, and I think that'll make A lovely podcast and, uh, I'm so glad that you and your small minority of Republicans are not in charge of, policy on this, but, no matter how wrong you are, you draw really great. 

[00:29:19] Rivers: Well, thank you, Daryl.

[00:29:20] Rivers: And anytime you want me to come back to whip your butt, uh, in front of millions of people, you go right ahead. I'm right here. 

[00:29:27] Daryl Cagle: Okay. So remember to, uh like, and subscribe to the Caglecast and, we will see you on the next Caglecast.